Episode 10

full
Published on:

20th Mar 2025

An Aspiration and Appetite to Innovate

In this episode of the Confluence podcast, hosts Randall Stevens and Evan Troxel welcome John Cerone, Principal at SHoP Architects. John discusses his journey with SHoP Architects, emphasizing the integration of technology and design in architecture. He shares insights into SHoP’s use of 3D modeling, digital twins, and collaborative processes to streamline construction, reduce costs, and deliver better-built environments. Highlights include the Barclays Center project, automation in construction, empathy in design, and the future of data-driven architecture.

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Transcript
Randall Stevens:

Welcome to another Confluence podcast.

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I'm Randall Stevens.

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I've got Evan Troxel co

hosting with me today.

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And, uh, special guest is John

Cerone from, uh, SHoP Architects.

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So, thanks for joining us, John.

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John Cerone: Thanks for having me.

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Randall Stevens: So I'll give, uh,

I'll give a brief intro from my

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perspective, and then I'll let you

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John Cerone: Sure.

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Randall Stevens: give a little more,

uh, a little more color and flavor

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to, uh, who you are and what you do.

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But, uh, I got to know John, uh,

obviously through his work at SHoP,

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but it started with, uh, Uh, a

couple of colleagues of his, Jeff

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Bell, who is a, uh, Jeffrey Bell's,

uh, uh, was a UK architecture grad.

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Uh, I always like to brag on the good

UK architecture grads who go on to do

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great things, and Jeff is one of those.

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But, uh, Jeff Bell and, uh, Adam Chernik,

uh, who, uh, is at Amazon now, has left.

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But, uh, but those guys were always

involved, and had participated in

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several of the Confluence events.

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And then when we were, been up to the

office and John and I had met, but then,

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uh, when we did our one day confluence

event in, in Brooklyn this past year,

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uh, John participated, and then, uh, we

invited him to come and speak, uh, in

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September when we had our, uh, event here

in Lexington, so it was great, great to

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have you join us, uh, for that, John,

and enjoyed, enjoyed the conversation.

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But, uh, uh, official titles,

your principal at SHoP, SHoP.

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the director of design,

visualization, all the construction,

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John Cerone: Sure.

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Randall Stevens: that's what we're going

to dive into is kind of what you guys do,

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but maybe you can give a little more, uh,

official about what you do there at SHoP.

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John Cerone: Sure.

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Uh, yes, and again, thanks, thanks

for, for having me and allowing

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me to participate in all this.

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We have actually a few, uh, great

UK grads who Scott Overall is, is

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here and leads up a lot of our,

computational, uh, uh, computational

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efforts on design and manufacturing.

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So, yeah.

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You know, keep, keep them coming.

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Randall Stevens: Yeah,

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John Cerone: Uh, I'm John Cerone.

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I'm a principal here at SHoP Architects.

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I've been with the firm since

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from, from grad school here and

previously had been the director

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of virtual design and construction,

um, which we can get into all the

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kind of jargons between BIM and VDC.

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And I've, I've, I think

I've made comments on other.

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You know, interviews or presentations

around our, um, uh, avoidance,

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or we try to avoid jargon.

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And so things like Building Information

Modeling is BIM, and Virtual Design and

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Construction may sort of inevitably,

inevitably become these acronyms.

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Uh, but, but really, I, I lead, The

efforts towards model based, uh,

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technology here at SHoP, uh, initially,

you know, really understanding how we

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can leverage the models that we create,

the three dimensional digital models,

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that's the medium that we work in,

uh, how you can, of course, use them

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to design, um, this three dimensional

composition, describe the project, how

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that works in the design process, how

you iterate, Um, of course, they're,

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they're great for rendering, they're

great for visualization, but my focus

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from, from the beginning had really been

with a, a lens around how to make those

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models actionable, uh, how to enhance

parts of those models, to communicate

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with contractors, to, to, to, um, to

facilitate the execution of the project.

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So it's really, and, and there's a

lot of different technology obviously.

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Models come in different forms,

there's a lot of software that.

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That manage different types of three

dimensional data and tabular data.

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Um, and all, you know, there's a deep

stack of tools that SHoP leverages

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to design and execute those projects.

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And so, it's a long winded way of saying,

you know, I'm here to help us use 3D

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models to design and execute projects.

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Better leverage technology for that.

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But that's really the DNA of, of SHoP.

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Um, and it's, and what attracted

me here in the first place, uh,

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using technology models to do stuff.

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Randall Stevens: you know, from, from,

you know, my time being around you

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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Randall Stevens: listening to you present,

it's, it's, uh, and correct me if I'm

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wrong, but, you know, the, the, the

general idea is that, You should be able

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to fabricate and make from, directly from,

without having to translate this into some

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interim form like, you know, 2D drawings,

if you can get the data, you know, uh,

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accurately in the computer in such a

form that you can get that translated

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out for fabrication of pieces and parts,

and then ultimately, uh, helping to,

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for complex projects, assembly on the

ground and the teams that are actually

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going to put these buildings together.

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Is

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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Randall Stevens: fair?

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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I think we just, we try to avoid

abstraction as much as possible.

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So, you know, you use your,

use the energy, which, which

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doesn't mean you model things

unnecessarily to certain details.

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Obviously.

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There's a huge role of automation, um,

involved, but, yeah, I, you know, I,

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I deeply believe that, uh, the, the 3D

model, um, can be used to, uh, to, to,

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uh, to, to coordinate, to manage the

logistics, the complexities of a project,

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but we can design and use the byproduct of

our design, enhance that for fabrication,

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so communication to machines or people,

um, that there's, there's just a huge,

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um, You know, opportunity to streamline

the way that we approach describing and

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then delivering projects, our industry in

general, you know, that contractually our

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deliverables are still 2D documentation.

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And I believe that will shift.

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Um, uh, particularly, and we'll get

into this the more industrialized

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our industry becomes, the more.

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Where, you know, the CAD CAM

revolution, uh, you know, hit

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aerospace automotive in the 90s.

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Um, and I, I think advanced manufacturing

is afforded a lot, uh, from those

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advanced processes of, of G code.

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Taking three dimensional, uh, uh, you

know, elements and having the precision

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of machining, you know, creating

code that drives those machines.

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Um, you know, I, That was the early

stages, you know, that unlocked a

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huge amount of opportunity of, of

precision, of, um, you know, managing

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tolerance, managing complexity, merit,

managing variation of, of piece, part,

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the component, uh, and, and that will

inevitably happen in our industry.

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We're going to start manufacturing

parts of our building.

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I mean, we already do, but we're

going to start manufacturing.

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Larger and larger parts of our

building and bringing more things

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from a factory on site that will,

uh, constitute the building.

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So we will assemble

buildings in the future.

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I, I, I believe that.

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Randall Stevens: Go ahead,

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Evan Troxel: I have a question for you,

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Yep.

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Evan Troxel: practical.

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I mean, a lot of people are talking

about this too, and you're not just

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talking about parts, you're talking

about giant assemblies and panel

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systems and all this stuff, right?

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And, then there's like the side of this

that is, the AHJ side of things, like

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the permitting process, the review.

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And so, a lot of the reason why it's still

2D is because of that, not because of

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the, the, the construction of that stuff.

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what do you think is going

to drive this change?

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Is it just the, you know, you

and the Skunk Works and, and like

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actually going and really, really

pushing on this and it's going

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to pull the jurisdictions along?

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Or do you think this is like a

two pronged or a multi pronged

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battle with contracts and AHJs

and insurance and Builders, right?

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Like there's a, there's an

intertangled total mess here.

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John Cerone: It's huge.

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It's huge.

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Evan Troxel: just wondering if you

see kind of where the pressure's

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being applied to get the fastest

result, to really realize this kind

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of practical vision that you have.

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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Um, no, I mean, it's obvious, it's an

enormous, uh, multi pronged, uh, you know,

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incredibly deep amount of stakeholders.

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And, uh, there's a huge amount

of inertia in the industry.

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I mean, this is a resistance, you

know, we're, we're trying to steer

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a very large ship that's been

moving in one direction a long time.

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Um, it's going to come through.

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I think, I mean, that, that

answer is, is multifold.

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I think it's going to come through

really great collaborations.

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It's, I mean, I think

one thing to point out.

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uh, which I think is going to be

irrefutable in the near future.

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It's not a technology problem.

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We have the tools that, you know, we

have the software, um, to simulate

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all components of our design to

fabricate at the highest level.

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I mean, you, you, you see

what's happening in aerospace.

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Um, and, uh, you know, um, It's not

a, it's not a technology problem.

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We can design complexity, we can,

we can manufacture and fabricate.

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Uh, it is obviously a, a behavioral issue.

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It's, it's, it's the, accepting new

methods, proving that new methods have

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the fidelity, that they're safe, that

we're not taking enormous risks by,

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uh, Changing the mode of communication.

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I don't think we're, no one is

interested in skipping any parts of

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what like jurisdictions, you know, we,

we have to comply with, with standards.

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We have to comply with codes and I don't

think there's any appetite to short

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circuit that, but I think going back to

certain first principles, understanding

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why codes are set up, how they are, the

ability now to computationally simulate.

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The real performance of systems, um,

unlocks potentially new ways of approval,

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performance based approvals versus,

you know, prescriptive, um, rules.

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I think one thing that's happening is,

you know, younger force, and I know this

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almost sounds cliche and because I, I

played a lot of video games growing up.

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My third grader plays a lot of video games

growing up and just the spatial awareness.

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I think the, a younger.

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group of people that are moving up

through, um, you know, that are,

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will be in the authorities offices

and will be in the workforce.

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Uh, the sort of gamification

there, there's a accessibility

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to three dimensional information

that's becoming more, um,

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accessible, uh, or more prevalent.

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You know, it's interesting, you know,

we're trained up on, um, All the tools.

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So, you know, in our, in our design

stack, you know, we use Rhino 3D,

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obviously Revit for documentation.

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We use the Dessault Systems suite, CATIA

for modeling, you know, manufacturing,

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um, and, you know, engineers, SolidWorks,

Inventor, all these tools that you're

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trained to do, you know, you learn in your

university and in, you know, in practice.

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You know, I, stakeholders, Clients, a

lot of people we collaborate with weren't

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trained up in these 3D tools and they

shouldn't be, they shouldn't have to be.

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It's, they're not intuitive, you

know, they're, they're good at some

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things, not great at other things.

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And I think there's, we're seeing

a, a whole ecosystem of people

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developing, you know, web based

tools to lay out your house.

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You know, small, small, you

know, games on mobile devices.

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More, uh, agnostic platforms for viewing

3D, you know, before, you know, uh,

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you can send GLBs to people, like file

formats where your phone can now open

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native 3D models and spin them around.

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I think some of this is a response

to just the, um, you know, games have

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moved to full, very three dimensionally

and material rich environments.

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And, you know, people moving up in that.

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It's becoming more accessible.

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It is interesting, because sci fi, I feel

like, always leads a certain direction.

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Like, they get a lot of things right.

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And you even think back to the old

games where, earth games, movies, where

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someone's, you know, gonna break into

the, you know, the Mission Impossible.

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The impossible mission.

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I don't know copyright things, but like,

you've got to go in and do the thing.

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And they've got those at first it

was wireframe, you know, Tron's

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3d, but like you get, you get the

map and the pinpoints where, like,

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I don't think that that's wrong.

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I think that that was obviously a,

a, a graphic and a demonstration

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in, in a sort of idealized UI.

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But the reality is people

understand 3d like that.

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That's legible.

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I don't think clients.

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And often, even in schools now,

people aren't really trained or are

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really not learning how to read plans.

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I mean, I think you understand it

from a layout perspective, but plan,

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section, elevation aren't really the

most intuitive way to understand a space.

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And it is still, you know,

we live in a 3D world.

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You know, existence, and I think it's

just more accessible, and so when things

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are easy to navigate, and it's more

intuitive to understand, or to, to, uh,

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interface with, with three dimensions,

the more people will, that will be the

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expectation, and I think it's a long

winded way of getting to the point where

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I, I think that the 3D, and our ability

to process and, and review in 3D, and

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make comments, um, you know, I, I We

can get into some of this like VR is, is

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virtual reality is still a little slow.

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I think for adoption, there was a big

burst and we thought, you know, during

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the pandemic, that would be everyone

would have the headsets on and access it.

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So there's still nuances in hardware

and what people will accept to, to

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engage three dimensional environments.

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But I think what we're seeing

is if you can provide really

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simple, intuitive, immediate

access and clear navigation to it.

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People respond really well to being

in 3D, to commenting in 3D, and we're

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seeing, you know, review platforms

where you can review, um, We're

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working with several in the office and

creating our own where you can review

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projects in progress, the commentary.

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You're essentially setting up an

environment, a persistent 3D environment.

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That is the project.

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So it evolves, options are discussed,

constraints are diagrammed,

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decisions are made, results are

represented in three dimensions.

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And the more that that happens,

uh, the more, uh, I think we

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get used to that way of working.

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Decisions are made very quickly,

you have confidence in the, like,

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making that decision in the context.

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When you're looking at a, a, a detail

or, or understanding, um, you know,

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aspect of the design, seeing the

surrounding context is very helpful.

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And so decisions are made faster, and

there's no reason that, especially when

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we overlay performance data on those

models, when you can review the discussion

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around, systems in that building.

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When you can see the analysis of egress

and environmental performance overlaid

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on that 3D model, that, uh, there's no

reason we can't also digitally stamp

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or approve it in that same environment.

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So I don't think, you know, it's

going to take a lot of work.

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It's going to take prototype

projects, going to take great

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collaborations with designers, uh,

you know, innovative contractors.

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Uh, to deliver these buildings, but

I think when we see these, uh, ways

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of working, actually working well, we

start to see construction schedules

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becoming, uh, expedited when we see,

you know, I think margins increasing,

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it will be sort of irrefutable and,

and it's hard to not get on board with,

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with, you know, The way that we approve

buildings, I think it has to happen.

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Randall Stevens: John, you made a comment.

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I can't remember if it was when we

were in Brooklyn or, here in Lexington,

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but, If I remember right, you were, you

were saying, the designer should just

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have to describe the surfaces, right?

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That design should be

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John Cerone: Yeah.

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Yeah,

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Randall Stevens: And then as a secondary

kind of process, then the complexity

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of how that gets made, how it should

be formed, you know, is a second.

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So that you were just describing.

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Sounded more about like the communication

process of deciding what a lot of

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those forms should be and what's going

to work in the specific project as

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opposed to constructability, which

I kind of framed, you know, at the

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first part of the conversation, but

it seems like there's really two

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benefits of this kind of a workflow.

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It's both communication in

the, in the design process, and

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then ultimately fabrication or

making from that info and data.

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John Cerone: I mean, that's a great point.

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I think it's the synthesis of these.

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So, it's not mutually exclusive.

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I don't want to marginalize design at all.

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I mean, we actually, we believe in it.

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We believe that great

design is really important.

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Uh, we believe that there's a

benefit , to great environments.

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Like, at an urban level and, you know,

that it, how it affects the quality

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of life is, is a deep, you know,

fundamental element, uh, at SHoP.

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I think what we're, the, the issue

that we have in an industry is that

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it, And design, unfortunately, is a

very, you know, why the building is

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what it is and why it is, is a very

small percentage of the design, uh,

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of the life cycle of a building.

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So you know, the, you know, that's a,

it's that small percent and a lot of the

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effort goes towards the coordination,

uh, documenting how it will be done.

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So.

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What we're hoping, what I would imagine,

um, you know, happening is if we can

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start to automate or in real time,

evaluate how it's done, uh, understand the

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constraints, understand the systems that,

that fulfill a performance requirement,

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we can shorten the, the effort needed

to abstract the designs, document it to

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explain it, uh, sort of inefficiently.

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To produce it.

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Uh, and so what I think that what you

were talking about, Randall, the idea

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of this wireframe, if we can describe,

because again, not trivializing, I

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think we don't want to be stylists.

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It's not about a look and in

a lot of ways SHoP, um, we

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don't have a kind of signature.

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Formal move or material move

that we make all the time.

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Like you can't, there's no tell,

like you, you can't just look and

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say, Oh, that's a SHoP building.

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Um, and we, we pride ourselves on that

because every project is different and

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we want to deal, we kind of work from.

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The programmatic requirements, the,

the, uh, the performance requirements

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of the building, and of course,

there's context that we want to fit in.

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There's history that we want to fit in.

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There's materials that work well

in context and with what certain

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clients are trying to achieve.

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So, uh, the composition and material

application is the core of what we do,

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but in service of a great environment.

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The issue in our industry is, one,

it takes a lot of effort to model

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those and produce imagery of those.

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Um, and then once that's approved,

this is what it's going to be.

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Then you get to the business of working

with contractors and subcontractors to

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start understanding how you would actually

do it and what it will actually cost.

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And that serial process,

that's not sustainable.

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Um, and so.

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So the approach that we, uh, have, have

sort of defined in SHoP and believe is,

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is scalable is this concept of wireframe

modeling, lightweight, uh, datums,

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lightweight geometry, and trying to

describe, um, the, the composition in

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as lightest weight inputs as possible

that, that remain flexible, agile, and.

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In that environment, invite people, um,

and it's contractors, subs, manufacturers,

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it can be industry adjacent manufacturers.

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Invite them in to understand, to look

at those surfaces, treat that wireframe

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more as a, as a 3D marketplace.

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Um, I don't want to get too far into

that, but the idea that you can look

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at, this is what we're trying to

achieve, this is our design intent.

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Uh, and allow them to host systems.

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on those wireframes.

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And then with that, you'll get,

you know, we can continue to, to

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adjust, um, dimensional, we can

continue to adjust the design.

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Uh, those systems should

be able to update.

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And I understand there's, you

know, That's not commonplace right

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now, this idea of modeling fully

flexible fabrication systems.

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Um, again, that's not a technology

constraint, that's just, that's a

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sidebar, that's just not the way we work.

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But the more we're able to apply higher

fidelity systems models, uh, on top of

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design models, the, the more accurate,

uh, quantity takeoffs, the more accurate

343

:

performance simulations we'll get.

344

:

Um, so it's We should be able to

have full creativity in design and in

345

:

real time understand the implications

of the things we're proposing.

346

:

So, we want a curved surface, uh,

of a certain stone because that look

347

:

feel, uh, we should know in real

time, uh, what vendors can provide.

348

:

That.

349

:

stone, where it comes

from, how it was sourced.

350

:

I think when we start getting, and

this is a sort of asterisk, but this is

351

:

the more industrialized and precise we

become, which is what these model based

352

:

processes allow, the more availability

we have on the implications of that.

353

:

So where materials source, obviously the

carbon impact or environmental impacts,

354

:

but also labor impacts is something that.

355

:

You know, the traditional design and

source, you know, execution process is

356

:

really far removed from ethical sourcing.

357

:

I think some of, to that point, actually,

Evan, like, I think some of the forcing

358

:

factors are the responsibility of

the industry to perform better, both

359

:

from an environmental, but also from

like, a labor standpoint, um, will

360

:

force, Uh, us to work in, in new ways

to, to be more precise in designs.

361

:

Uh, sorry, that sort of goes off on

a tangent, but I'm we shouldn't have

362

:

to model so much, I don't think the

future of our industry is, is architects

363

:

making fabrication information.

364

:

I think it's us working together

with makers and engineers to

365

:

look at that same environment.

366

:

This is our intention model,

and this is what systems.

367

:

Allow those vendors or those stakeholders

to host their systems on top of that.

368

:

So we can all look and make, you know,

approve those or make adjustments,

369

:

uh, from a, a cost to time or

a, uh, performance standpoint.

370

:

Evan Troxel: There's so

many delivery models.

371

:

Well, not so many, but there are other

delivery models that, that maybe you

372

:

don't, uh, don't allow for this as well.

373

:

Like, you know, design, bid, build,

but then also there's, there's the,

374

:

like, the tech savviness or just

the savviness of the contractor and.

375

:

they have this alignment

with jurisdictions to say,

376

:

like, well, we need 2D plans.

377

:

Well, so do we, right?

378

:

And those feed each other.

379

:

But what you're talking about is you're

talking about a different breed of, of

380

:

contractor and even owner and vendors

and like all of these, you've created

381

:

this new ecosystem where everybody sees

the value in these lightweight models.

382

:

and flexibility, being able to make

design decisions as early as possible, and

383

:

still maintaining flexibility throughout,

and delivering something more precise,

384

:

probably faster, with all of these

environmental boxes checked as well, and

385

:

the labor, you know, the ethical sourcing,

and all of those boxes checked as well.

386

:

And so, like, you're building this

tremendously valuable ecosystem

387

:

that, to me, like it all has

to change all at once, right?

388

:

It's everything, everywhere, all at once.

389

:

Kind of like that idea, right?

390

:

John Cerone: Yep.

391

:

Evan Troxel: And, and there's

so many people who are still

392

:

relying on these old ways.

393

:

it really does kind of take a lot of

examples to say like, okay, now everybody

394

:

else has permission to do this too.

395

:

for all of these reasons, because

they all line up and man, it's,

396

:

it's, this is just a, there's,

there's a lot of territory to cover

397

:

John Cerone: There it is.

398

:

Yeah.

399

:

Evan Troxel: time to go through so much

of that, because what I, what I hope

400

:

to do with, with what you just said,

is just give people in the design.

401

:

Part of that equation and whoever else

decides to listen, where to apply the

402

:

pressure, where are the fulcrum points

in that equation, apply the most leverage

403

:

so that that can happen sooner, because I

think everybody who's listening to this is

404

:

very interested in that happening, and at

the same time, a lot of people are like,

405

:

I don't know what to do about it, so I'm

just going to stand back and watch, right,

406

:

John Cerone: And

407

:

Randall Stevens: I think I heard

you comment, John, that we can talk

408

:

about some of the specific projects

that you all have kind of, uh,

409

:

implemented these kind of practices on.

410

:

But, you know, once a, once a

contractor has had the experience,

411

:

it's like, they don't want to go back.

412

:

It's like, okay, that's a much better way

of, you know, working and communicating.

413

:

John Cerone: there are, there are

contractors, you know, I think that

414

:

realize that the, that understand

the industrialization are embracing

415

:

it, certainly want to drive it.

416

:

Um, you know, we're in conversations

with several around these, you know,

417

:

we're very open, uh, open source or

open book about our, you know, because

418

:

I think some of the challenges are

there's, um, There's a, there's a

419

:

perspective that we've, we have now just

by certain projects and the way that

420

:

we've worked that you can't unlearn that.

421

:

So, you know, I think just from a very

technical standpoint, this idea of what

422

:

software lets you, you know, uh, uh, draw

a line and create surfaces, and then hope,

423

:

you know, take that surface and thicken

it to a certain, you know, uh, level.

424

:

Dimension of steel or aluminum.

425

:

And then I want to off what allows you to

be that precise and, you know, hold that

426

:

kind of information that off of that, we

need to divide, uh, you know, that, uh,

427

:

backing strut by a certain amount, because

that's engineering performance and like

428

:

host all these multi material systems.

429

:

Um, there's just, I don't think

people have worked that way a lot.

430

:

Um, And we, certainly to execute

certain facades on our projects we've

431

:

done, had gotten that experience.

432

:

Um, and it really is just this crash

course in, um, what tools work well.

433

:

Um, this, that's a little bit of a ramble.

434

:

I mean, I would just say, you know,

if I were rephrasing all this, I

435

:

don't think the, uh, availability

of some of these tools or a certain

436

:

way of working has been widely used.

437

:

or, um, uh, experienced in our industry.

438

:

So some of this is just a

case of genuinely not knowing.

439

:

I mean, we, you know, everyone, our

design tools that are people understand

440

:

commonplace, there's AutoCAD in 2D,

there's Rhino in 3D, there's SketchUp in

441

:

3D, um, and, and those are the tools sort

of people think of like Rhino, SketchUp

442

:

as creative design tools you've got.

443

:

3D Max and Maya, if I don't know if

that's still being taught in school as

444

:

a viable, you know, authorship tool.

445

:

I think there are ways absolutely of

using those as, as authorship tools.

446

:

Um, but in general,

you're kind of a rhino.

447

:

Uh, if you're a 3D company,

you're a rhino or, or SketchUp.

448

:

Randall Stevens: You got to give Form

449

:

John Cerone: I, oh my God, 4Z.

450

:

I learned, that was my

first taste of 3D actually.

451

:

That was the, that was

the thing in undergrad.

452

:

An unbelievable professor.

453

:

You know, I went to undergrad

at Miami University in, in Ohio.

454

:

Um, and, uh, you know, Form Z was

a product in, out of Ohio State.

455

:

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

456

:

John Cerone: And I had this unbelievable

professor, Morali, and it was an

457

:

elective class, and I just didn't,

you know, you, you, we had May lines.

458

:

We were doing the, the drawing, you

know, on Mylar and all that stuff.

459

:

And I just remember taking

an elective on May lines.

460

:

FormZ.

461

:

And it's just an incredible

educational tool, a, you know,

462

:

modeling tool, drafting tool.

463

:

But just this idea that this can be the

project, um, and I can resolve details,

464

:

I can, I can, uh, visualize it, I can

create renderings to show people, I can

465

:

create the plans or sections, you know.

466

:

So, that idea that, um, that FormZ.

467

:

That to me was more of a sort of

philosophical shift and a lens that

468

:

now, what are the best tools to do that?

469

:

So it's not sort of fetishizing

any certain tool, but you know, it

470

:

lets you gauge whether this tool

is moving in the right direction.

471

:

Is it performing the way you want?

472

:

And I, I think just, uh, the pursuit

of finding the right, uh, Uh, software

473

:

or the right combination of software

is to, to operate a certain way.

474

:

That is a very sort of

effective sort of 3D stack.

475

:

Um, has like, again, it's a, It's

understanding how it should work and

476

:

then finding the right tools that either

perform or don't and I, I, I don't think

477

:

we are challenging that enough now.

478

:

I mean, I think eventually there's

more and more of a thought like

479

:

this is going to end up in Revit.

480

:

The documentation is in Revit.

481

:

If you need to do a huge drawing

set out of 3D model, there's no tool

482

:

that produces that better than Revit.

483

:

So that's become obviously

the industry standard that is

484

:

sort of synonymous with BIM.

485

:

but Revit doesn't have a connection with

that kind of what you're doing in Rhino or

486

:

SketchUp, which is, authoring, geometry.

487

:

It's, you know, these are

geometric modelers and then systems

488

:

need to be applied to those.

489

:

So, you know, we've, we found our,

kind of good solution or that works

490

:

for us in this hybrid Rhino for fast

design authorship and then leveraging

491

:

CATIA for deep systems modeling.

492

:

And I think Grasshopper, you know,

parametric modeling is, is certainly

493

:

like that's not new to the scene now.

494

:

And I think a lot of people are doing

incredible things with it where you

495

:

can build really complex fabrication

or fabricatable systems, In, Rhino,

496

:

that idea of creating surfaces

or guiding geometry that then is

497

:

enhanced by systems that you define.

498

:

Um, we do a lot of that

work too in Grasshopper.

499

:

Um, but there's just a, a sort of

scale where if you really want to sort

500

:

of, leverage, parametric fabrication

systems, like there's a phase shift

501

:

when you move to something like that.

502

:

that can manage all of, you

know, the lightweight geometry

503

:

and the deep systems modeling.

504

:

So, I say all that just because we

have, by some of the projects, we

505

:

engaged other ways of working, those

other tools, more like aerospace,

506

:

automotive tools, and understood how,

accessible, manufacturing information is

507

:

on top of lightweight authorship data.

508

:

So we have that perspective that I

think that the more people understand

509

:

that, again, this is a very roundabout

way of getting it, but we are, we're

510

:

talking to and in conversations

and potential collaborations.

511

:

with contractors that

really understand it.

512

:

They, they are doing not the same building

every time, but they're using systems.

513

:

They need to be in control.

514

:

They want to templatize

how systems operate.

515

:

So it's as a, you know, a panelized

stud frame that's got layers of gyp and

516

:

they are in rules of how those overlap.

517

:

Tools that can catalog that and really,

allow them to move quickly from.

518

:

Design input that they

don't necessarily trust.

519

:

It's sort of abstract design input to

turn that into manufacturing information,

520

:

bills and materials, uh, logistic

sequences that, we're seeing the

521

:

appetite for that from some innovative

contractors now, and doing projects.

522

:

with people that agree

with a way of working.

523

:

And I think design build

is, is fantastic for this.

524

:

I think you can do it in other

models designed to build.

525

:

I think it's more of a, it's people,

it's who you're working with.

526

:

It's a aspiration and an appetite

to, to innovate, to find better ways.

527

:

And to your point, Evan, it's

not, it is an enormous thing.

528

:

And I think it is everywhere,

everything, everywhere all at once,

529

:

but it's going to be incremental.

530

:

So.

531

:

It's the understanding of how the big

philosophical shift and then proving it

532

:

out through, we're going to do it on this

scope and these are the KPIs that we're

533

:

going to achieve, and these are the,

these are the inefficient elements that

534

:

we're going to cut out by doing this.

535

:

Um, so that's a whole other exercise,

defining prototypes that give the

536

:

whole team assurance that we can

automate this, and that we can.

537

:

Short circuit, a huge amount of

inefficient deliverables into sort of

538

:

the design model to the manufacturer.

539

:

So it will happen

through, uh, case studies,

540

:

Randall Stevens: John, I know, you know,

as you all began kind of developing

541

:

these ways of working, I think you,

you said you all worked on, you know,

542

:

smaller scale, some pavilions, some,

some, you know, projects where it lets

543

:

you kind of test some of these ideas.

544

:

And then ultimately the Barclays project

I think was your all's, you know,

545

:

like, Okay, this is at scale, uh, you

546

:

John Cerone: yeah.

547

:

Mm-hmm

548

:

Randall Stevens: you know, wouldn't

have happened without, you know,

549

:

using some of these kinds of methods.

550

:

Um, maybe, maybe we can kind of turn this

part of the conversation to, you know,

551

:

what does that go back 15 years now?

552

:

What's part?

553

:

Evan Troxel: When

554

:

John Cerone: 2009 to 2012,

555

:

Randall Stevens: So,

556

:

what I'd like to understand is, Okay.

557

:

You're using some off the shelf tools.

558

:

You,

559

:

John Cerone: yeah.

560

:

Randall Stevens: you, when, when

did you discover CATIA versus

561

:

some of these other tools?

562

:

And then, uh, you know, 20,

563

:

John Cerone: Mm-hmm

564

:

Randall Stevens: and 20 years ago,

how much code were you all having to

565

:

write yourself versus, you know, has

that matured, where are you all doing

566

:

your own, um, you know, development?

567

:

Cause I've seen some of the, you know,

you're actively building some, some of

568

:

your own tools for doing some of this

versus what's commercially available.

569

:

John Cerone: I mean, it is a,

it is an interesting case, so.

570

:

2009 is when Barclays started, and we

won't get into the whole origin of why it

571

:

came to our office, but, you know, it's,

that's actually right when Grasshopper

572

:

was entering the, as the parametric model.

573

:

Grasshopper kind of killed, uh, generative

components, but, you know, at that time

574

:

it was, it was quick, it was accessible,

and I think you could do a lot.

575

:

Um, with it, it wasn't as mature of

an ecosystem, um, and, and right now

576

:

a lot of, just if you fast forward, a

lot of the more sophisticated things

577

:

we're doing in Grasshopper is there's

just, there's a lot of code in it.

578

:

So a lot of those nodes, there's Python

and sort of C sharp code embedded in it.

579

:

Randall Stevens: assume that

through the education system, you're

580

:

seeing a lot more students come

out knowing, you know, how to use

581

:

John Cerone: Yup.

582

:

Randall Stevens: tools.

583

:

John Cerone: and it's, you know, I

think we, we received the benefit

584

:

of, of the, again, the, the core

DNA and the thesis, the philosophy

585

:

of the firm certainly attracts.

586

:

certain tech minds, but it also

attracts, you know, I think,

587

:

designers that care about material.

588

:

And so we can, we can mix our teams

up so that we have a nice balance

589

:

of, of computation and, and design.

590

:

Not that they're mutually

exclusive, but typically, you

591

:

know, I think people's interests.

592

:

So we can blend those well, but so

:

593

:

Um, you know, our initial design

studies are really coming through

594

:

just kind of splines and traces

in, in, in space, uh, in Rhino.

595

:

So we knew the project was

going to be set up in Rhino.

596

:

it wasn't site built, so we

had very specific, uh, deadline

597

:

in terms of opening day.

598

:

Um, it had to open for the Jay Z

concerts, so that was like a very

599

:

specific day that it had to open.

600

:

And there was a budget, you know,

we were basically given a Premium.

601

:

You can hit, you know, this amount to,

to enhance the look of the project.

602

:

Um, but it's a constraint.

603

:

And of course we already had

the site constraints of, you

604

:

know, there's no lay down area.

605

:

It's downtown Brooklyn.

606

:

It's over all the subway lines.

607

:

So it's a, it's a complex site and

we have very strict constraints

608

:

and the toughest one of those

constraints is it three years.

609

:

So a project to be, you

know, begin concept.

610

:

Um, and move through in

three years like that.

611

:

That's, that's a challenge.

612

:

Um, and we, it's interesting.

613

:

So we were working in Rhino and we

were, we were smart in, you know,

614

:

rigging up the design models we were

doing, using Grasshopper to output,

615

:

you know, quantities in real time.

616

:

So every, we, we tend to iterate a lot.

617

:

Um, so we, you know, define the project

into, into certain, um, regions, and

618

:

then we're, we're pushing and pulling,

whether it's an aesthetic reason or

619

:

sort of a sightline performance reason,

uh, getting the real time metrics.

620

:

I mean, this is happening within like

the, you know, first week of like concept.

621

:

And, again, my, my lens is on sort

of modeling for manufacturing.

622

:

Uh, my seat partner, uh, Adam Modison,

uh, who's now teaching at MIT.

623

:

He had done his thesis, his architectural

thesis in CATIA, so this sort of rogue,

624

:

in terms of parametric modeling, he

was guiding that the, and I should

625

:

just add that Rhino and CATIA play

really, geometrically, they play really

626

:

well together, so you can take those,

those curves that we were defining

627

:

in Rhino, um, you know, and work

on them in terms, in CATIA in terms

628

:

of, The more parametric automation.

629

:

So it's at the time it was something

we were kind of balancing, like you

630

:

could do that in Rhino, even in this

sort of immature ecosystem of Rhino.

631

:

But we knew that this would have

to be manufactured and decisions

632

:

would have to be made well.

633

:

So we committed to the robust,

you know, automotive, you know,

634

:

obviously Frank Gehry sort of

famously applied it to architecture.

635

:

Um, but we were using it in it.

636

:

a slightly different way, or we didn't

go set out to do that, but we ended up

637

:

using it in a slightly different way.

638

:

And that was just direct

communication with manufacturers.

639

:

Um, so I drifted off.

640

:

How much of this did we do?

641

:

So that we're using the TS, it's just the

choice of using that was, was different.

642

:

Um, we got very good at

leveraging the, uh, systems.

643

:

that are native in that tool, which the

big concept are engineering templates.

644

:

Uh, they called them document

templates at the time.

645

:

Engineering, this idea that you can model

this huge amount of relationships, how

646

:

this grid thing, you know, the grid on the

ground hits these curves in space, forms

647

:

points, those points, you know, it's, it's

all of the things that were in generative

648

:

components that are in Grasshopper,

this kind of those relationships of.

649

:

Adding on, uh, features to, you

know, basically a history stack,

650

:

uh, but with a lot of control.

651

:

So offsetting, you know, a very specific

amount, or I should say a very specific

652

:

parameter that you can always change.

653

:

And then once that's offset this, you

know, I want member to be this deep and

654

:

then adding bolt holes, but the hole

is this big or the bolt is this big.

655

:

So we need that plus tolerance.

656

:

So we just, we were, wiggling

the design from a surface level,

657

:

uh, which became panelized.

658

:

And that was all, I mean, Adam,

it was really a crash course.

659

:

I, I, he taught me CATIA

sort of in real time.

660

:

Um, and he was running the parametric.

661

:

Rules, which is basically, uh, EKL,

um, that's CATIA's scripting language.

662

:

It's VB, it's based on VB.

663

:

And, uh, so that is all custom.

664

:

So there's no, you know,

it doesn't come with walls.

665

:

It doesn't come with specific features

or buttons that are for architecture.

666

:

You're defining it.

667

:

Um, you know, this is the steel

profile they're going to use.

668

:

So that's what is, you know,

extruded over these things.

669

:

Um, and that's all scripted.

670

:

It's like scripting language.

671

:

So the automation comes through a logic

and a scripting that we were defining.

672

:

Adam was writing on the design side, and

I was creating templates of these, uh, you

673

:

know, megapanels with the manufacturing

tolerances, the sheet metal, bending K

674

:

factors, all the kind of physical systems.

675

:

But we sat next to each other

physically, but we would also sort

676

:

of share, uh, a Google doc of rules.

677

:

Like these are the parameters and we

created a joint table of logic that his

678

:

design model would call my engineering

templates and, um, It was a way that

679

:

we could, in, you know, in real time,

we were sort of doing what I had just

680

:

described, probably too verbosely before,

of like, we were doing everything all

681

:

at once, it was like looking, talking

with the suppliers, we're understanding

682

:

the physical constraints of their

systems, we're building out, working

683

:

with engineers and the manufacturers,

taking into account all of their

684

:

constraints, and building that into a

template that the design model could call.

685

:

So that way of working, we, we

can't unknow that that, it works.

686

:

And it, the condition, yeah,

687

:

Evan Troxel: to do

688

:

John Cerone: we didn't set out to do it.

689

:

Evan Troxel: Which is, which is kind of

690

:

John Cerone: Yeah.

691

:

Evan Troxel: Randall's question is like

looking back, like where, where were you?

692

:

It's, you're kind of in the same, like

you still have this way of doing things.

693

:

You, you still write a lot of scripting

and code, you're even writing your own

694

:

apps, you're doing all these things,

but like you didn't set out to become

695

:

this, like you were that, and you have

iterated and iterated and iterated and

696

:

just kind Grown through that process over

697

:

John Cerone: were,

698

:

Evan Troxel: years,

699

:

John Cerone: were trying to, I mean,

that project, we were trying to solve

700

:

problems as fast as we possibly could.

701

:

And when the problem arose of.

702

:

You know, we just cut thousands of parts

and you see someone walking through

703

:

a factory with a clipboard checking

off, you know, where we had spun up.

704

:

We had our own internal issue

with the Excel sheet got too long.

705

:

And so we spun it up into a SQL database

and we could write our parameters

706

:

directly into the SQL database.

707

:

So we were tracking what our

status of like what we released

708

:

for production and stuff that way.

709

:

So when you see someone else on that team.

710

:

Uh, you know, in this case the, the,

uh, sub having challenges with it, uh,

711

:

managing data with a, we can spin up

a, you know, an iPhone interface and

712

:

at that time we weren't writing apps.

713

:

It was, we don't often tell that story.

714

:

This was FileMaker.

715

:

We started like, we created a, a, an

interface for FileMaker, like just

716

:

a, a, a front that was running on

an iPhone that then would link back.

717

:

To the SQL database.

718

:

So FileMaker was really just

a sort of fake app front.

719

:

Evan Troxel: the

720

:

John Cerone: Uh, it was a UI but what

that allowed us to do is, have them

721

:

capture real time status of things

based on barcodes we would send them.

722

:

Cause that was easier for us to manage.

723

:

And then we could host the model

online and to host it online.

724

:

There was a whole other roundabout

trickery of like, U we were U

725

:

using Navisworks and Autodesk

had recently bought Navisworks.

726

:

So there's a whole thing of going into

the technical, accessing the kind of

727

:

tech wizards behind the product now

in charge Autodesk, and understanding

728

:

how to link that in real time to sql.

729

:

And there were challenges

that we, um, worked through.

730

:

But what we were doing was hosting real

time stat, like making, trying to make

731

:

everyone's job easier because there's

just no time for producing reports

732

:

and doing things the traditional way.

733

:

So we didn't set out to do it.

734

:

It was all in service of like solving

something that would just take too long

735

:

for someone else to do or maintain.

736

:

So automate, uh, and then it was

really, it was just series of.

737

:

Some, you know, success

in that, like it worked.

738

:

So we, we would then automate the next

thing and, and work with the, you know,

739

:

manufacturers and the contractors getting

really good at understanding how to read

740

:

LIDAR information scanning so that we

could, before the, the panels that were

741

:

coming out, we could analyze where they're

going to fit and coordinate a whole

742

:

round of logistics on like preemptive,

Detection in a way there was, there

743

:

was just a whole series of things that

we spun up solutions too quickly to

744

:

make it work, uh, or to facilitate it.

745

:

Again, in collaboration, we're

not manufacturing experts, we're

746

:

not installers, but understanding

the constraints and automating it.

747

:

That's what we could do.

748

:

We could automate the result of

what people were describing to us.

749

:

And when the dust settled from that,

we realized that what we had done

750

:

was set up a good process for design

authorship, to rig automation of, you

751

:

know, systems in real time, tracking

geometry and reporting it well.

752

:

So we had this kind of end to end set of

solutions that we had produced, uh, or, or

753

:

hacked together through other solutions.

754

:

So as we then, once the dust,

like I said, the dust settled from

755

:

that, moving on to new projects.

756

:

We realized, we could spin

up WebGL viewers on our own.

757

:

We could build more robust, SQL

database or I should say more

758

:

relation, better relational databases.

759

:

So we could ingest and track and, and

visualize the data we are producing, much

760

:

faster in tools that we were spinning up.

761

:

And we could adjust those.

762

:

So like, CATIA it's a

phenomenal CAD CAM solution.

763

:

It also does a lot of other, it has

a lot of other, features or, you

764

:

know, there's a very deep ecosystem.

765

:

Some of it's more robust

than things we need.

766

:

So understanding how we can.

767

:

Build our own tools that can quickly allow

us to, to share, data with, with others.

768

:

Uh, host things online quickly.

769

:

You know, I, I think we were looking

at what solutions we used, what worked

770

:

really well, and then what were ones

where we could write our own, viewers

771

:

or pipelines that made it faster.

772

:

And we've.

773

:

again, we have a good,

we have a good road map.

774

:

We have a template of a digital end to

end digital process, and we could see the

775

:

sort of gaps in, the missing features and

to date, we've, we've just been building

776

:

some solutions that help our clients or

certain collaborators or stakeholders

777

:

access and visualize that data easier.

778

:

So none of it was, um, you know,

we weren't trying to create

779

:

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

780

:

John Cerone: tools.

781

:

We're not like a,

782

:

Randall Stevens: It was out of necessity,

783

:

John Cerone: it was out of necessity.

784

:

And then there's just ways now, and

now I think we know, I mean, it's

785

:

interesting because I think that a

disclaimer of this is we haven't done.

786

:

I mean, you know, there

were Barclays was unique.

787

:

There was a unique, perfect

storm of constraints.

788

:

Um, how do you.

789

:

We move now onto the harder parts of

defining the incentive, like reward

790

:

structure of that, how are contracts

written that enable this way of working?

791

:

And then you sort of run directly

into, um, the reality of how

792

:

big our industry is, how it

actually works, how messy it is.

793

:

And, the innovation is going to now

happen on these collaborations, on these.

794

:

These teaming arrangements that allow

us, as an industry, the designer,

795

:

the contractor, the developer

that has the appetite for this

796

:

to realize these ways of working.

797

:

again, it's not a technology issue.

798

:

It is now like, that was almost,

Barclay's is almost mythology at

799

:

that point, which is, is frustrating,

uh, because you want to repeat.

800

:

I think we can scale this.

801

:

We, you know, If we were to do another

stadium, uh, I mean, we, we actually

802

:

did it with that same client and

contractor group on Nassau Coliseum.

803

:

We, we reclad the exterior,

incredibly efficient process,

804

:

different subcontractors.

805

:

they were very tech enabled.

806

:

It allowed, it, it was in a way,

that's almost anti climatic, which is

807

:

how I think the more this progresses.

808

:

Randall Stevens: It should

809

:

John Cerone: It, it should be, uh, but,

but you just, it's, it's the industry,

810

:

it's so big, it's so hard to, uh,

just continue that scale and to get

811

:

that really right condition of, of,

of, uh, you know, stakeholder group.

812

:

Huh.

813

:

Uh huh.

814

:

Randall Stevens: I'll let you,

uh, tell me where I was wrong

815

:

or what I was getting wrong.

816

:

But, uh, John, a few months ago

showed me a project that I think

817

:

it was walkways or bridges.

818

:

And, one of the things that he

was showing that, and I just

819

:

want to bring this back to like.

820

:

Proper use of technology, which, you

know, was, they could design this, this

821

:

bridge and these walkways, and then

you end up slicing it up right through,

822

:

through using the technology to slice

the shapes, but then being able to,

823

:

you know, to one, analyze this for,

I'll say constructability and cost,

824

:

which is, you don't want every shape to

be different if you don't have to be.

825

:

So they were able to like measure.

826

:

Go through them and measure tolerances

and say these are close enough to be

827

:

the same these parts and now we're

going to Standardize those parts and

828

:

now we've reduced this down This what

could have been an infinite number

829

:

of not infinite But you know a lot of

individual parts where one would have

830

:

been so close that you couldn't have

told to a kid of parts Now they're cut

831

:

with now assembly instructions for that

that just really Stuck with me John

832

:

when you showed that because it is you

know It's mind, it's doing two things.

833

:

It's we're cutting down cost ultimately,

834

:

John Cerone: Yeah,

835

:

Randall Stevens: ultimately making

it easier for the manufacturer, you

836

:

know, to, to maybe mass produce these,

uh, pieces and parts that are going

837

:

to end up being part of this project.

838

:

John Cerone: it's interesting,

I mean that, that project, we

839

:

We almost ran some of our tool.

840

:

There are other tools that we had, we've

created over the years now solution,

841

:

little solvers, not little, or like

we'll create a solver and then expand.

842

:

Oh, it would also be great if this

thing could check if holes were aligned.

843

:

And if there's a certain tolerance that

needs to be hit, like it's basically,

844

:

we had been automating QA, QC, which,

which is, that's how it has to work.

845

:

I mean, we've been through, you know,

Projects where you're producing millions

846

:

of parts fabrication and you start

off with this, you know, a hundred

847

:

point checklist of going through it

and no one's going to, I mean, you

848

:

can spin through and you can check

every spot, check every element.

849

:

It's just not the right,

like philosophically, it's

850

:

not the right way to do it.

851

:

You have to understand the system,

understand where the problems could

852

:

happen in automation because they can,

but that's unique to, you know, Did

853

:

this software, did it update or not?

854

:

Am I running it on the right

multi threaded, you know, machine?

855

:

Like it, you have to understand

that's one of the benefits of building

856

:

some of the solutions yourself is

that you know how you did it and you

857

:

know what, what's going to go wrong.

858

:

Randall Stevens: Right.

859

:

John Cerone: Um, but it

was, it's been a collection.

860

:

So we have this, we're in this phase

now where we've built a lot of.

861

:

Solvers for various reasons, you

know, egress analysis or kind

862

:

of spatial adjacency analysis.

863

:

So there's all like design analysis,

solvers, there's fabrication, uh, you

864

:

know, system analysis and solvers.

865

:

There's, and in those tools, we,

you know, we built something that

866

:

looks at all the parts of something.

867

:

And if something's close, you know, you

set the tolerance and we actually use

868

:

it for a totally different application.

869

:

Uh, replace those parts with

block instances of that.

870

:

So we really know how many

unique parts there are.

871

:

Uh, and then within that, uh, and again,

that's not something, people don't

872

:

typically use Rhino in a, like a really

kind of advanced fabrication way, I should

873

:

say, but like designers aren't thinking

of blocks and nested blocks or unique

874

:

parts, I think you're designing, but

you can take sort of free form design.

875

:

Or at least, you know, what we've

experienced, the tools we've made

876

:

allow you to be creative and create

design and then rationalize it and put

877

:

a logic over that, um, which then can

package really well and go into a tool

878

:

like CATIA or SolidWorks to understand

the sub assembly relationships.

879

:

So what's interesting is you go

on our website, you don't see a

880

:

lot of infrastructure projects.

881

:

You don't see some of these projects

that we are, I think, increasingly

882

:

uniquely positioned to help support.

883

:

I think, infrastructure for sure,

you know, transit, pedestrian path,

884

:

you know, bridges, tunnels, things

that were the tools we made would

885

:

lend themselves really well to this.

886

:

it's a challenge because that, again, the,

the industry doesn't operate that way.

887

:

It's not a great template for, so how is

that value received or how, how is that?

888

:

We are certainly adding value or

have the potential to add value.

889

:

Uh, but how do you set

up the contractual model?

890

:

How do you, is there even

an appetite to work it?

891

:

Cause it does take, uh, a different,

like you want the engineers,

892

:

you want the manufacturers.

893

:

On board and the design process,

which is not, I think there's a

894

:

sort of myth too, that it doesn't

work with competitive bidding, that

895

:

there's going to be some advantage of

allowing, uh, you know, bidders to look

896

:

at it and then apply their systems.

897

:

I don't think that's mutually exclusive.

898

:

I think you can design with

that wireframe approach.

899

:

You can evaluate.

900

:

multiple systems on that.

901

:

Randall Stevens: So all things

constrained, you know, in your mind

902

:

then are for the same money working in

this, you should get a better product,

903

:

John Cerone: think there's a win win win

scenario where it is a better product.

904

:

Randall Stevens: about

905

:

John Cerone: and it's

906

:

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

907

:

John Cerone: margins of all, you know,

of the designer, of the manufacturer,

908

:

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

909

:

John Cerone: are all higher and the

project is less expensive for the

910

:

owner, and I know that all sounds over

constrained, but I, I think the result

911

:

of really efficient ways of working, um,

nothing de risks a project more than.

912

:

Creating a digital twin of it.

913

:

And the reason people don't do it

is because I don't think they have

914

:

access to the tools or understand

the role of automation and allowing

915

:

you to model all the components.

916

:

Um, and then it's whose

responsibility is it?

917

:

And you know, it just gets quickly

law, you know, buried under

918

:

risk adverse and rightfully so,

you know, contractual language.

919

:

I mean, the, the exposure is.

920

:

Is, that's a real thing.

921

:

Randall Stevens: if you think about

the construction side, right, which

922

:

is most of the money, right, that's

923

:

John Cerone: yep.

924

:

Randall Stevens: and, know, if you, if

it's roughly split half materials and

925

:

half labor, you know, maybe you can talk

about, uh, the project that you all did

926

:

in Africa, where I know you described

when you were here in September and

927

:

showed like the, you know, they did, Evan,

they did like the stuff got fabricated

928

:

and shows up on the, on site with a

relatively low skilled labor force, right?

929

:

That's

930

:

Evan Troxel: Yeah,

931

:

Randall Stevens: assemble, you

know, what is this beautiful,

932

:

you know, looks complex.

933

:

Uh, project, but all you had to

do was say, you know, I can look

934

:

at these, these drawings or the,

935

:

John Cerone: Sort of IKEA diagrams.

936

:

Yeah.

937

:

Evan Troxel: I'm, I'm aware of this

project, and it was a long time in the

938

:

making right, John, but this, it, it

actually is a really incredible story

939

:

because of the, the extreme focus you have

on using local labor and I think materials

940

:

even to, to build those projects.

941

:

John Cerone: Yeah.

942

:

It was, it's fabricated in South

Africa, Cape Town, South Africa.

943

:

And, um, yeah, I mean it's, it's

interesting 'cause I, you always knew

944

:

that it was going to be, that was part

of the, the, the, um, the, the government

945

:

mandate on this project is, is that

it's going to be done in local labor.

946

:

Um.

947

:

And there's a lot of, you know, uh,

knowledge transfer that would happen.

948

:

I mean, in terms of, again, our approach

towards like we will always show people

949

:

how, how the modeling process and, and

sort of, show the steps and the work.

950

:

So there's no, you know, secret sauce in,

951

:

Evan Troxel: Yeah, you're not hiding,

952

:

John Cerone: we're not hiding it.

953

:

Yeah.

954

:

Yeah.

955

:

It's, it,

956

:

Evan Troxel: and like you, like you,

you talked about avoiding abstraction

957

:

from the very beginning, like you're not

interested in that because you don't want

958

:

somebody to actually have to interpret

959

:

John Cerone: right.

960

:

Evan Troxel: you're drawing and

come up with their own way of

961

:

doing it when you're trying to

962

:

Randall Stevens: explicit,

963

:

Evan Troxel: intent

964

:

John Cerone: right.

965

:

Evan Troxel: Mm

966

:

John Cerone: and so, but, you know,

that's one of those things you can

967

:

size based on the material use and,

you know, aluminum extrusions and, and

968

:

that aluminum panel, like you can right

size something to be, you know, picked,

969

:

uh, by, you know, two to three people.

970

:

It can be, you know, hoisted up by

a rope and instead of a crane, I

971

:

mean, you can, you, when you work

this way, you understand the weight.

972

:

The, you know, what, what sub assemblies,

what parts people are handling.

973

:

You start to have empathy around if this

is, if someone's going to assemble this,

974

:

this comes off a water jet and there's

a hundred pieces cut, of course, they're

975

:

going to be marked with what part they

are, but what orientation do they go?

976

:

Um, and if you're just giving a

box of parts, shiploos parts, how

977

:

do you even start to sort those?

978

:

So you work with the suppliers, um,

And there's a kind of shorthand or

979

:

the things you can encode into it

that are human readable of, you know,

980

:

you put a chamfer on one side that

always indicates that that's down.

981

:

in that case, you know, we keep the

fastening systems very simple, rivets.

982

:

And the things can really

only go together one way.

983

:

So it's, it's self jigging in a sense.

984

:

Um, but it lend itself well to

sub assembly to flat pack frames.

985

:

And then you would ship

most of it assembled.

986

:

Um,

987

:

Randall Stevens: It's the IKEA,

988

:

John Cerone: it's an

Ikea, we shipped:

989

:

Randall Stevens: Flat,

990

:

John Cerone: screen.

991

:

If, yeah, if Ikea made the,

yeah, rain screen card.

992

:

I, yeah, I don't, I don't, uh.

993

:

Randall Stevens: you know, what we're

really talking about is communication.

994

:

It's,

995

:

John Cerone: communication.

996

:

100%.

997

:

Randall Stevens: person

to the next person.

998

:

And what is the best

999

:

John Cerone: Yeah.

:

01:01:06,896 --> 01:01:09,156

Randall Stevens: or the most

meaningful way to be able to, to do

:

01:01:09,156 --> 01:01:13,309

John Cerone: I mean, you, if you think

about the typical drawing set, I mean, the

:

01:01:13,309 --> 01:01:18,179

amount of annotations and dimensions that

are on everything, because there are the

:

01:01:18,179 --> 01:01:22,369

standards you have to, you know, dimension

and you don't dimension something twice.

:

01:01:22,429 --> 01:01:25,859

Um, in, you know, if it's dimension

here, you don't dimension another

:

01:01:25,889 --> 01:01:28,962

because you don't want, Well, also, I

mean, this is also like legal thing.

:

01:01:28,972 --> 01:01:31,852

You did it here and that's,

that's the source of truth.

:

01:01:31,852 --> 01:01:38,432

but the amount of information that is

on a page and it's just, it's, I think

:

01:01:38,432 --> 01:01:43,842

a lot of people kind of shut down or

it's just not accessible, whereas we're,

:

01:01:44,212 --> 01:01:44,482

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

:

01:01:44,492 --> 01:01:48,352

John Cerone: we're talking about, if you

can understand the, of how the sequence

:

01:01:48,392 --> 01:01:51,612

at which the project is being produced.

:

01:01:51,752 --> 01:01:57,892

And going together, the information

itself can be really accessible.

:

01:01:57,902 --> 01:02:02,292

Like it can be so simple,

there's no one part of a project

:

01:02:02,382 --> 01:02:03,872

that's, that's really complex.

:

01:02:03,872 --> 01:02:07,202

It's an aggregate, like you, and you

want to keep detailing really simple.

:

01:02:07,212 --> 01:02:12,922

Like that's, you want them to

be, uh, performative, but simple

:

01:02:12,922 --> 01:02:15,962

so that the complexity of the

building is the aggregate.

:

01:02:15,962 --> 01:02:21,707

How much, how many parts, and how

How accurate those tolerances are.

:

01:02:21,707 --> 01:02:27,497

It's just, it compounds into something

very hard, but step by step, it's all, you

:

01:02:27,497 --> 01:02:31,087

know, someone's going to pick something

up and needs to know where that goes.

:

01:02:31,087 --> 01:02:36,817

And if it doesn't fit, you need to know

why, uh, so am I holding the right thing?

:

01:02:36,847 --> 01:02:41,507

Or is it, you know, it is this

sequential order of operations.

:

01:02:41,837 --> 01:02:47,682

And the more the pieces of those are

increasingly manufactured, the likelihood

:

01:02:47,682 --> 01:02:50,212

that their intolerance is greater.

:

01:02:50,742 --> 01:02:54,702

Uh, but then you're shipping, you know,

you're reducing the part count, which

:

01:02:54,702 --> 01:02:56,352

is all sort of off site manufacturing.

:

01:02:56,352 --> 01:02:59,282

It's just reducing part count

because you've got parts and

:

01:02:59,282 --> 01:03:00,702

they're pre assembled for you to go.

:

01:03:00,752 --> 01:03:01,722

And that's happening a lot.

:

01:03:02,342 --> 01:03:06,812

Um, but you've got less parts and then

understanding the sequence of those.

:

01:03:07,172 --> 01:03:10,437

And the more you simulate that

digitally, the more, Well choreographed.

:

01:03:10,437 --> 01:03:11,897

It'll be on site and simpler.

:

01:03:11,897 --> 01:03:15,527

The instructions are you can you

know, we're gonna we're gonna

:

01:03:15,527 --> 01:03:19,802

mark where the bottom of that is

and so there's opportunities to

:

01:03:19,802 --> 01:03:22,346

choreograph a much More efficient

:

01:03:22,626 --> 01:03:23,356

Randall Stevens: Oh, I can't tell you how

:

01:03:23,416 --> 01:03:23,696

John Cerone: build

:

01:03:23,726 --> 01:03:26,066

Randall Stevens: I've put together

where I've put it on that panel on

:

01:03:26,226 --> 01:03:26,486

John Cerone: Yeah

:

01:03:27,046 --> 01:03:28,896

Randall Stevens: And then, and then

I've got to take it back apart when I

:

01:03:29,106 --> 01:03:29,356

John Cerone: Yeah

:

01:03:29,366 --> 01:03:29,896

Randall Stevens: next one doesn't

:

01:03:30,136 --> 01:03:30,466

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

:

01:03:30,786 --> 01:03:32,069

Randall Stevens: why

didn't you just mark it?

:

01:03:32,626 --> 01:03:35,626

Evan Troxel: It's, it's interesting that

you think about this from like an empathy

:

01:03:35,666 --> 01:03:39,286

kind of point of view, because like you

start to blur the lines between means and

:

01:03:39,286 --> 01:03:40,456

methods when you're doing that, right?

:

01:03:40,456 --> 01:03:43,366

Because you're talking about assemblies

of parts and how these things go

:

01:03:43,366 --> 01:03:48,001

together and, but you're, You're also

kind of adding in a layer of the right

:

01:03:48,001 --> 01:03:49,701

information at the right time, right?

:

01:03:49,721 --> 01:03:54,491

Like what we're guilty of and because

of the way insurance and risk and

:

01:03:54,491 --> 01:03:58,111

all these things work is all the

information is there up front, right?

:

01:03:58,111 --> 01:04:01,001

Because then it's like, well, now

we're covering our ass, right?

:

01:04:01,001 --> 01:04:02,571

Because we've got it all on there.

:

01:04:03,321 --> 01:04:06,631

you're actually talking about just

showing people what they need when they

:

01:04:06,806 --> 01:04:07,176

John Cerone: Yes

:

01:04:07,201 --> 01:04:11,741

Evan Troxel: It's this just in time kind

of mentality, also with the understanding

:

01:04:11,761 --> 01:04:15,201

of what they're going through to

actually produce the thing at the point

:

01:04:15,201 --> 01:04:16,761

in time that they need to produce it.

:

01:04:17,211 --> 01:04:21,101

Like, this is another level of, of

understanding, but also what you're

:

01:04:21,101 --> 01:04:24,561

willing to go through to get into

your models so that that can happen.

:

01:04:25,096 --> 01:04:27,676

John Cerone: I think empathy is a huge,

I mean, I think that again, when we get

:

01:04:27,686 --> 01:04:29,416

into this, it's not a technology issue.

:

01:04:29,426 --> 01:04:30,306

It's a behavior issue.

:

01:04:30,306 --> 01:04:33,126

And it's, the behavior is that

this industry is not set up

:

01:04:33,136 --> 01:04:35,286

for people to trust each other.

:

01:04:35,576 --> 01:04:38,346

And, and for, for a lot of

reasons, very adversarial.

:

01:04:38,626 --> 01:04:44,446

And I think empathy is an absolute

critical part of understanding, um,

:

01:04:44,786 --> 01:04:47,426

or enabling better collaboration.

:

01:04:47,426 --> 01:04:51,276

Because I think our experiences when

it's been really successful, These are

:

01:04:51,276 --> 01:04:53,236

groups, things will always go wrong.

:

01:04:53,436 --> 01:04:58,916

Something's going to be miscut or you're

going to have the wrong piece or there

:

01:04:58,966 --> 01:05:00,346

are always going to be challenges.

:

01:05:00,486 --> 01:05:06,356

Um, I think leveraging technology

can greatly mitigate, you

:

01:05:06,356 --> 01:05:08,516

know, how many things go wrong.

:

01:05:08,916 --> 01:05:14,156

But when you're, when you're understanding

that people are really trying to,

:

01:05:14,646 --> 01:05:16,783

uh, consider It's interesting.

:

01:05:16,783 --> 01:05:18,093

I mean, I'll jump back.

:

01:05:18,573 --> 01:05:21,953

A quick anecdote in Barclays is there

was, you know, we were designing

:

01:05:21,953 --> 01:05:26,663

these panels, these weathered steel

panels, and we didn't know how they

:

01:05:26,663 --> 01:05:28,463

would connect to the bigger units.

:

01:05:28,513 --> 01:05:30,323

You know, this is really

kind of early design.

:

01:05:31,373 --> 01:05:34,173

And the contractor was like,

we have, it's a long lead item.

:

01:05:34,203 --> 01:05:35,933

We have to order 600 tons of steel.

:

01:05:36,103 --> 01:05:38,023

What sheet size should we order?

:

01:05:38,033 --> 01:05:38,733

It's like, Oh.

:

01:05:39,353 --> 01:05:40,823

We hadn't thought about that.

:

01:05:40,843 --> 01:05:45,873

We found like, I quickly Googled,

uh, uh, nesting software and found

:

01:05:45,873 --> 01:05:52,623

this incredible nesting software, uh,

Sigma Nest, uh, and got it, you know,

:

01:05:52,623 --> 01:05:57,843

downloaded a trial version and was

able to lay out all the panels of, of

:

01:05:57,843 --> 01:06:01,603

our kind of trending designs, because

we had that, that was the automation.

:

01:06:01,603 --> 01:06:05,883

We could unroll all of our panels

and we thought we were really clever.

:

01:06:06,203 --> 01:06:07,173

We're like, you don't give us.

:

01:06:08,323 --> 01:06:11,443

Do this study and by the end of

the week we'll get back to you.

:

01:06:12,013 --> 01:06:15,263

And we thought we were really

clever because in that nesting

:

01:06:15,263 --> 01:06:16,993

software you could pick multi sheet.

:

01:06:17,133 --> 01:06:19,423

It's meant for like large scale

production of like water jet

:

01:06:19,423 --> 01:06:21,543

plasma cuttering companies.

:

01:06:22,403 --> 01:06:25,583

And we're like, if you do three

different sheet sizes we can

:

01:06:25,583 --> 01:06:29,673

get it down to, you know, this

really small percentage of waste.

:

01:06:30,573 --> 01:06:34,253

And we, like, we were so proud

from a computational problem

:

01:06:34,253 --> 01:06:36,493

solving, like, we nailed it.

:

01:06:37,193 --> 01:06:41,233

And the, the foreman in the

factory floor, the manager was

:

01:06:41,243 --> 01:06:43,623

like, that's super impressive.

:

01:06:43,723 --> 01:06:47,763

If I have three piles of sheets

on my factory floor of different

:

01:06:47,763 --> 01:06:51,833

sizes, the people have so much going

on in the factory, they will pick

:

01:06:51,833 --> 01:06:53,853

the wrong sheet and put it down.

:

01:06:53,883 --> 01:06:55,973

The likelihood that they'll put

the wrong sheet on the water jet

:

01:06:56,263 --> 01:07:00,953

and cut and end up with more waste,

uh, there's a better chance of more

:

01:07:00,953 --> 01:07:03,673

waste like versus one sheet size.

:

01:07:04,173 --> 01:07:04,503

And.

:

01:07:05,188 --> 01:07:09,228

I, I don't, just from an empathy

standpoint, it's just not a

:

01:07:09,228 --> 01:07:11,168

calculus that we had considered.

:

01:07:11,518 --> 01:07:12,928

It's not, you know,

it's only three sheets.

:

01:07:12,978 --> 01:07:14,378

It's not that hard.

:

01:07:14,838 --> 01:07:19,088

Uh, but then when you understand

what's going on on a factory floor.

:

01:07:20,138 --> 01:07:25,688

So we, we, uh, basically understood where

our panels were, like which ones weren't

:

01:07:25,908 --> 01:07:30,288

being efficient or, uh, and we picked

the sheet size and then we changed our

:

01:07:30,288 --> 01:07:31,848

design model to max out the sheet size.

:

01:07:32,898 --> 01:07:38,128

And so that's a design being informed

by constraints, um, you know,

:

01:07:38,428 --> 01:07:38,628

Randall Stevens: Yeah,

:

01:07:38,928 --> 01:07:43,468

John Cerone: which that anecdote one,

it was more, I mean, for us, it's,

:

01:07:43,618 --> 01:07:48,458

it changed, you know, it changed a

lot about how we thought about what

:

01:07:48,498 --> 01:07:53,749

our role was also in terms of our

expertise, which our expertise is design

:

01:07:54,049 --> 01:07:54,459

Randall Stevens: Right, right, right.

:

01:07:55,309 --> 01:08:00,479

John Cerone: material application for

great environments and it's automation.

:

01:08:01,729 --> 01:08:02,879

It is not engineering.

:

01:08:02,929 --> 01:08:04,499

It's not logistics.

:

01:08:04,538 --> 01:08:12,159

So what we're able to do is, and the

empathy side of it is understand, like,

:

01:08:12,169 --> 01:08:14,219

listen, you've got to be a good listener

:

01:08:15,109 --> 01:08:15,439

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

:

01:08:15,589 --> 01:08:19,919

John Cerone: you hear what, uh,

what, what really drives the needle.

:

01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:23,559

You know, what drives costs, what adds

complexity to projects, what doesn't.

:

01:08:23,559 --> 01:08:27,569

And that's one of the issues in the

industry now is there's just so much

:

01:08:27,599 --> 01:08:30,259

opacity in what really drives the needle.

:

01:08:30,669 --> 01:08:35,249

What drives budgets or what drives

costs and how much, you know, just to

:

01:08:35,249 --> 01:08:41,509

understand from a system standpoint, what

the rules are and have people explain.

:

01:08:41,559 --> 01:08:45,349

And one, it makes, they don't

have to do this crazy laborious

:

01:08:45,429 --> 01:08:46,318

shop drawing everywhere.

:

01:08:46,318 --> 01:08:50,779

If you understand the engineering,

the kind of min max, uh, constraints

:

01:08:51,198 --> 01:08:55,549

and from a supply standpoint, what

materials or profiles they want to use.

:

01:08:56,203 --> 01:09:00,634

Then we can take kind of general

assembly drawings, as we call

:

01:09:00,634 --> 01:09:03,474

them, and, uh, automate it.

:

01:09:04,113 --> 01:09:08,404

So our competence is just like, here's

our design, and here's the result of

:

01:09:08,474 --> 01:09:10,004

everything that you're describing.

:

01:09:10,113 --> 01:09:10,904

That's the result.

:

01:09:11,573 --> 01:09:11,854

Uh,

:

01:09:12,259 --> 01:09:12,759

Randall Stevens: So,

:

01:09:12,774 --> 01:09:13,084

John Cerone: and, you know,

:

01:09:13,089 --> 01:09:16,328

Randall Stevens: because of those

learnings, uh, you know, or what you

:

01:09:16,509 --> 01:09:21,719

do learn from, know, who's going to

ultimately fabricate and, and make,

:

01:09:22,078 --> 01:09:26,609

do, do you tend to then try to pull

one, identify them earlier in the

:

01:09:26,609 --> 01:09:30,149

process and then ultimately have

them involved earlier in the process?

:

01:09:30,604 --> 01:09:31,714

John Cerone: I think it's always better.

:

01:09:31,794 --> 01:09:34,663

I mean, that's always, you know, design

assist, contracts, I think design

:

01:09:34,703 --> 01:09:36,163

build, again, allows more of that.

:

01:09:36,163 --> 01:09:39,783

But I, we're gonna inevitably move,

our industry will move to that.

:

01:09:39,814 --> 01:09:40,384

It's just.

:

01:09:41,174 --> 01:09:43,774

I think it's better to

have the constraints.

:

01:09:44,404 --> 01:09:46,794

Um, and again, that's, uh,

technology enables that.

:

01:09:46,827 --> 01:09:49,648

we can collaborate in the same

environment, in the same three,

:

01:09:49,667 --> 01:09:54,938

you know, digital environment,

and we can get feedback faster.

:

01:09:55,468 --> 01:09:55,878

Um,

:

01:09:56,178 --> 01:09:57,648

Randall Stevens: So it sounds like the, It

:

01:09:57,978 --> 01:09:59,028

John Cerone: it's contract language.

:

01:09:59,348 --> 01:10:01,988

Randall Stevens: in your, in your

mind that the, the technology

:

01:10:01,988 --> 01:10:05,438

has actually outpaced the

ability for the, the market, the

:

01:10:06,008 --> 01:10:06,448

John Cerone: I think so.

:

01:10:06,748 --> 01:10:07,618

Randall Stevens: means and methods

:

01:10:07,918 --> 01:10:08,148

John Cerone: Yep.

:

01:10:08,448 --> 01:10:09,608

Randall Stevens: and way of working.

:

01:10:09,908 --> 01:10:15,098

Uh, but, uh, but if you did put your

technology hat on, what, what do you see?

:

01:10:15,158 --> 01:10:18,338

What's, what, what do you all doing

that you're experimenting with or

:

01:10:18,338 --> 01:10:19,778

that might be right around the corner.

:

01:10:20,558 --> 01:10:24,338

There's obviously a lot of new technology

around that's, that's starting to take.

:

01:10:24,778 --> 01:10:27,168

Uh, you know, that's got

everybody's attention.

:

01:10:27,228 --> 01:10:27,468

So

:

01:10:27,528 --> 01:10:27,788

John Cerone: Yep.

:

01:10:27,968 --> 01:10:29,288

Randall Stevens: are you all

seeing or thinking about?

:

01:10:29,683 --> 01:10:34,273

John Cerone: Um, so I mean, it's

interesting because on our technology

:

01:10:34,293 --> 01:10:38,963

development, like we, we did on the app

store, we have a project portal, like a

:

01:10:38,963 --> 01:10:41,963

SHoP portal, uh, which is really a viewer.

:

01:10:42,443 --> 01:10:45,433

It was a way that originally we

called it the cocktail hour app.

:

01:10:45,473 --> 01:10:50,643

The client could log in and, you know, on

their own, if they were flying somewhere,

:

01:10:50,723 --> 01:10:55,788

you know, uh, with, with, uh, friends

somewhere else, they could use it to

:

01:10:55,788 --> 01:10:58,748

spin the model of the project around,

show, you know, the program layout.

:

01:10:58,748 --> 01:11:03,298

It was a way for them to communicate

the project to themselves, understand

:

01:11:03,298 --> 01:11:06,618

it, uh, and communicate it to their,

:

01:11:06,998 --> 01:11:07,278

Randall Stevens: Yep.

:

01:11:07,338 --> 01:11:07,928

John Cerone: their friends.

:

01:11:08,028 --> 01:11:10,978

Um, but we did that.

:

01:11:11,268 --> 01:11:14,225

And if you look at from a technology

standpoint, it's like, we're talking

:

01:11:14,225 --> 01:11:17,608

about millions of fabrication

parts and almost looks like a, a

:

01:11:18,388 --> 01:11:21,868

step back from a heavy technology.

:

01:11:22,293 --> 01:11:27,833

But it's really important that we break

down that barrier of access, intuitive

:

01:11:27,843 --> 01:11:33,533

access to the models because we know

where this goes, we, we know it was very

:

01:11:33,533 --> 01:11:38,333

easy for us in, in that project portal

to provide real time, uh, construction

:

01:11:38,333 --> 01:11:43,143

status, like the visualization, which

is data so that we can start providing

:

01:11:43,183 --> 01:11:46,413

data visualization, um, in real time.

:

01:11:47,608 --> 01:11:50,948

To a larger stakeholder group in

things that they have, you know,

:

01:11:50,978 --> 01:11:54,418

iPads, iPhones, mobile devices, iPhone.

:

01:11:55,178 --> 01:12:03,048

Um, but it's, it's a way of trying to

promote behavior around models, you

:

01:12:03,048 --> 01:12:07,228

know, adding features where you can

comment, you know, you can, you know,

:

01:12:07,238 --> 01:12:08,898

leave a note and respond to a note.

:

01:12:09,598 --> 01:12:14,348

This is where we're trying

to move this, suite of tools.

:

01:12:14,823 --> 01:12:18,706

And ultimately, I think where

we're positioning it is that this

:

01:12:18,706 --> 01:12:22,026

could be a great UI for operations.

:

01:12:22,026 --> 01:12:29,576

So, uh, one of the issues in the AEC

industry and certainly Architects have

:

01:12:29,596 --> 01:12:36,646

is we design to the best of our, of

our intuition and the kind of access

:

01:12:36,646 --> 01:12:41,146

to what we know have worked in the past

in our, you know, enterprise knowledge

:

01:12:41,146 --> 01:12:46,136

of, you know, of good design, uh, that

we're taught and have experienced,

:

01:12:46,376 --> 01:12:50,046

but we don't have access to how the

buildings are performing afterwards.

:

01:12:50,466 --> 01:12:54,003

which, it's, it's great to hear stories

when someone, you know, and it's great

:

01:12:54,003 --> 01:13:00,558

to see Instagram when your projects

are being enjoyed, uh, or working the

:

01:13:00,558 --> 01:13:08,468

way that you had hoped they would, or

in new ways, um, you know, uh, um, I

:

01:13:08,468 --> 01:13:13,098

think Barclays was super interesting

to us because we designed that canopy,

:

01:13:13,178 --> 01:13:16,848

under the canopy was meant to be a

big public forum for Brooklyn and it

:

01:13:16,858 --> 01:13:21,768

was, uh, uh, you know, that ended up

being a big area of the protests in

:

01:13:21,768 --> 01:13:23,148

Brooklyn, which we were super proud of.

:

01:13:23,148 --> 01:13:26,398

I mean, it was functioning, you know,

:

01:13:26,758 --> 01:13:26,958

Randall Stevens: As

:

01:13:26,978 --> 01:13:27,338

John Cerone: um,

:

01:13:27,508 --> 01:13:28,108

Evan Troxel: designed.

:

01:13:28,298 --> 01:13:29,288

John Cerone: as designed.

:

01:13:29,378 --> 01:13:36,273

It was, um, You know, it was, yeah, and,

and so it's, it's good to see when your

:

01:13:36,273 --> 01:13:39,403

spaces are being used well and enjoyed.

:

01:13:39,733 --> 01:13:43,303

But we don't have any real metrics or data

of like how many people are using it, how,

:

01:13:43,603 --> 01:13:43,803

Evan Troxel: Yeah.

:

01:13:43,803 --> 01:13:44,223

It's kind of

:

01:13:44,233 --> 01:13:44,463

John Cerone: did,

:

01:13:45,163 --> 01:13:45,773

Evan Troxel: at that level.

:

01:13:45,773 --> 01:13:45,973

Right.

:

01:13:45,973 --> 01:13:47,183

It's just like, you see, you see the

:

01:13:47,323 --> 01:13:47,923

John Cerone: That's right.

:

01:13:48,433 --> 01:13:50,783

Evan Troxel: and you're like the

positive success, but at the same

:

01:13:50,783 --> 01:13:52,603

time, you don't have real time

:

01:13:52,733 --> 01:13:52,952

John Cerone: Right.

:

01:13:53,033 --> 01:13:55,930

Evan Troxel: system level data

of your projects, accessible,

:

01:13:55,952 --> 01:13:56,873

John Cerone: space running hot?

:

01:13:56,903 --> 01:13:58,023

Is that something that we designed?

:

01:13:58,603 --> 01:14:03,443

Are certain moves that we make in

design leading to higher, you know,

:

01:14:03,693 --> 01:14:05,813

commercial value of, of retail space?

:

01:14:06,283 --> 01:14:11,283

I think these kinds of things are, the

world is becoming more interconnected.

:

01:14:11,343 --> 01:14:17,363

Internet of things, um, smart

operating systems, um, and so data

:

01:14:17,363 --> 01:14:25,273

is, you know, Increasingly important

and we produce a lot of data in the

:

01:14:25,513 --> 01:14:28,423

design and delivery of our projects.

:

01:14:29,103 --> 01:14:35,773

Um, but the byproduct that digital

twin, um, and how the building

:

01:14:35,773 --> 01:14:38,283

is being used, there's a huge

amount of data that can live on.

:

01:14:38,563 --> 01:14:44,452

And we think that spatializing this,

spatial, um, understanding that

:

01:14:44,463 --> 01:14:49,173

data over the 3D constructs that

we make That's the next frontier.

:

01:14:49,173 --> 01:14:50,303

It's super important.

:

01:14:50,613 --> 01:14:55,483

We're trying to work with clients

that have larger portfolio holdings

:

01:14:55,913 --> 01:15:00,783

to help build tools as a facility

management operations in the hope

:

01:15:01,083 --> 01:15:04,413

that we start getting some access

to data that informs better design.

:

01:15:04,423 --> 01:15:07,063

So we really complete this, this circle.

:

01:15:07,441 --> 01:15:10,061

Randall Stevens: have y'all started,

John, like talking to energy management,

:

01:15:10,371 --> 01:15:14,701

you know, kinds of companies that

build, uh, software and applications

:

01:15:14,701 --> 01:15:17,751

that are trying to monitor and,

and, and manage that side of it.

:

01:15:17,976 --> 01:15:19,226

John Cerone: we, we are,

:

01:15:19,236 --> 01:15:20,916

Randall Stevens: over the

life of the building, right?

:

01:15:20,916 --> 01:15:22,066

The idea that you could

:

01:15:22,496 --> 01:15:22,686

John Cerone: yep.

:

01:15:22,826 --> 01:15:24,986

Randall Stevens: to

understand, uh, energy costs.

:

01:15:24,986 --> 01:15:25,216

And

:

01:15:25,526 --> 01:15:26,446

John Cerone: And again, it is.

:

01:15:27,536 --> 01:15:31,616

It's a different territory than the, the

challenges of, of kind of design, build,

:

01:15:31,616 --> 01:15:33,126

construction, all the means and methods.

:

01:15:33,156 --> 01:15:36,216

Architects aren't supposed to get into

means and methods, but the product is much

:

01:15:36,246 --> 01:15:38,886

better when we're all working together

and understanding means and methods.

:

01:15:39,746 --> 01:15:45,696

Um, this is another challenge in

that we aren't trying to create a,

:

01:15:46,106 --> 01:15:48,326

uh, facility management platform.

:

01:15:49,016 --> 01:15:52,486

We are trying to integrate,

but people have them and there

:

01:15:52,486 --> 01:15:54,086

are increasingly new ones.

:

01:15:55,156 --> 01:15:56,616

That are coming out that are very robust.

:

01:15:57,016 --> 01:16:00,616

There are sensors in buildings and

there are ways of monitoring that.

:

01:16:01,106 --> 01:16:07,539

Um, what we're trying to do is become a

good spatial user interface for those.

:

01:16:07,969 --> 01:16:11,318

I think the future of this

stuff are, are smaller solutions

:

01:16:11,499 --> 01:16:12,949

that are connected through API.

:

01:16:13,359 --> 01:16:17,373

That are more agnostic to,

large commercial platforms.

:

01:16:17,428 --> 01:16:25,428

Um, and so we, we like, we're excited

by the emergence of companies that

:

01:16:25,428 --> 01:16:29,868

are looking at, uh, open source

3D, you know, companies like

:

01:16:30,038 --> 01:16:35,496

Speckle, uh, that are looking at,

platform agnostic 3D interfacing.

:

01:16:36,101 --> 01:16:36,411

Randall Stevens: yeah,

:

01:16:37,406 --> 01:16:38,036

John Cerone: um,

:

01:16:38,191 --> 01:16:38,681

Evan Troxel: browser.

:

01:16:38,731 --> 01:16:39,041

Right.

:

01:16:39,321 --> 01:16:41,741

Randall Stevens: you've got, I

guess, at least two, two fronts.

:

01:16:41,741 --> 01:16:43,386

One is simulation.

:

01:16:43,686 --> 01:16:43,896

John Cerone: yep,

:

01:16:43,931 --> 01:16:47,176

Randall Stevens: got 3d data, can you use

it combined with other things to simulate?

:

01:16:47,301 --> 01:16:47,341

And

:

01:16:47,476 --> 01:16:47,746

John Cerone: yeah,

:

01:16:47,761 --> 01:16:51,841

Randall Stevens: then you've got

as a, as a UI or UX, like it's a

:

01:16:52,101 --> 01:16:55,951

natural interface for a human to

see something in 3d and go, okay, I

:

01:16:56,176 --> 01:16:56,436

John Cerone: yeah,

:

01:16:56,606 --> 01:16:59,106

Randall Stevens: It's basically

where I am or where that is and

:

01:16:59,116 --> 01:17:00,446

which, which room that's in.

:

01:17:00,446 --> 01:17:03,636

And I've been, yeah, I

think it's a natural.

:

01:17:03,666 --> 01:17:05,136

It seems like it should be natural.

:

01:17:05,146 --> 01:17:05,996

It's not forced.

:

01:17:06,486 --> 01:17:06,696

Yeah.

:

01:17:06,726 --> 01:17:09,536

John Cerone: If I want to hack into

the bank, I mean, there's real world,

:

01:17:09,586 --> 01:17:12,406

it's not just like, oh, I've got

to go through three armed guards.

:

01:17:12,786 --> 01:17:17,161

Like, there's actual, like, what, what

spaces are, drawing the most energy.

:

01:17:17,211 --> 01:17:22,620

Like, heuristic filters and views that

we can, you Now quickly query, and

:

01:17:22,620 --> 01:17:28,363

understand, but I think the, if you

start overlaying really big data sets

:

01:17:28,565 --> 01:17:32,277

and spatialize them, we're going to

start, seeing some emergent results

:

01:17:32,297 --> 01:17:36,709

of why certain spaces that, you know,

the, the direction they're facing,

:

01:17:36,779 --> 01:17:39,428

the, how people use them, receive them.

:

01:17:39,750 --> 01:17:44,080

As a result to energy management to

like financial performance, like there's

:

01:17:44,080 --> 01:17:48,814

just, I think we're going to start

seeing, more actionable patterns of data.

:

01:17:49,204 --> 01:17:54,834

and the more we collect those and kind of

run, like collect data and run analysis

:

01:17:54,874 --> 01:17:59,622

in real time, the, the better, that

starts to get off into another kind of,

:

01:17:59,712 --> 01:18:00,162

Randall Stevens: it's kind

:

01:18:00,162 --> 01:18:00,182

John Cerone: Um,

:

01:18:00,252 --> 01:18:00,592

Randall Stevens: interesting.

:

01:18:00,592 --> 01:18:04,372

I was just sitting here thinking

about, you know, the, ultimately

:

01:18:04,372 --> 01:18:08,442

the goal is to convey the most

information as simply as possible.

:

01:18:08,492 --> 01:18:09,302

John Cerone: Yes, that's right.

:

01:18:09,312 --> 01:18:11,642

Randall Stevens: the question

is, what form should that take?

:

01:18:11,892 --> 01:18:14,352

I've actually got a

friend of mine who's, uh.

:

01:18:15,427 --> 01:18:17,897

uh, living back here in Lexington again.

:

01:18:17,967 --> 01:18:21,437

I don't know if you've ever

met a guy named Rob Sneider.

:

01:18:21,527 --> 01:18:26,387

I should, uh, no, not Schneider, Sneider.

:

01:18:26,407 --> 01:18:30,747

Uh, Rob worked at NBBJ and then

he was at Bentley for years,

:

01:18:30,747 --> 01:18:32,347

but he's been developing this.

:

01:18:33,177 --> 01:18:35,767

he's, I need to get him

introduced to you, John.

:

01:18:35,787 --> 01:18:38,497

In fact, I think the last time I talked

to him, I'm like, you need to talk

:

01:18:38,497 --> 01:18:42,727

to the guys at SHoP because he's got

this whole, uh, he's been working on,

:

01:18:43,497 --> 01:18:50,262

uh, know, take a 3D model yes, you can

convey obviously a lot of information

:

01:18:50,262 --> 01:18:56,372

from that, but he's been working on ways

to like section cuts as a, you know, as

:

01:18:56,372 --> 01:18:59,612

a language to understanding it's like,

yeah, you're going to move around the

:

01:18:59,612 --> 01:19:03,372

model, but as soon as you want to like

make a cut here, you really want to see

:

01:19:03,372 --> 01:19:07,982

that as a, a 2D section, because that

is the best way to understand, you know,

:

01:19:07,982 --> 01:19:11,882

what that is and what it's composed of

and what the relationship of parts are.

:

01:19:11,882 --> 01:19:16,087

So he's been trying to, you know, To

bridge that, like, there is still a place

:

01:19:16,087 --> 01:19:21,437

for 2D information, but can you marry

it in a way to the, to the 3D models

:

01:19:21,447 --> 01:19:25,087

so that, depending on what you're doing

and what you're seeing, you can, uh, you

:

01:19:25,087 --> 01:19:27,157

know, display appropriate information.

:

01:19:27,157 --> 01:19:29,247

So, uh, Rob will get a kick out of that.

:

01:19:29,247 --> 01:19:30,627

We've talked about, about

:

01:19:30,652 --> 01:19:31,172

John Cerone: yeah,

:

01:19:31,517 --> 01:19:33,916

Randall Stevens: because he's been,

he's got kind of open sourced it now,

:

01:19:33,916 --> 01:19:37,387

and he's got some other people around

the world interested in trying to start

:

01:19:37,387 --> 01:19:38,897

to integrate it in some applications,

:

01:19:39,197 --> 01:19:39,322

John Cerone: yeah.

:

01:19:39,322 --> 01:19:45,892

I mean, I think this is the horizon now

is just great, effective collaborations.

:

01:19:45,922 --> 01:19:52,422

I mean, again, you know, um,

we make models, digital models,

:

01:19:52,862 --> 01:19:57,642

uh, and we are getting good at

integrating, like reading live data.

:

01:19:58,357 --> 01:20:00,577

Lighting things up and sort

of we're saying paint by

:

01:20:00,577 --> 01:20:01,967

data is kind of their term.

:

01:20:01,977 --> 01:20:09,277

We've been using in the air a lot but

those sources of those are Vast and

:

01:20:09,287 --> 01:20:13,337

so Collaborating, you know people we

know solutions are being made like

:

01:20:13,337 --> 01:20:17,407

collaborating with Cisco and Siemens

and Bosch and these companies that are

:

01:20:17,497 --> 01:20:21,922

are experts in all this and then you

know analysis to your point, you know,

:

01:20:21,922 --> 01:20:25,512

structural analysis, environmental

analysis, collaborations with like

:

01:20:25,522 --> 01:20:28,422

Thornton Tomasetti is an engineering

firm that we work very closely with.

:

01:20:28,422 --> 01:20:34,912

And it's not about, you know, this,

this, the days of, you know, we've

:

01:20:34,912 --> 01:20:38,582

got our proprietary things and we're

going to in a black box do this.

:

01:20:38,592 --> 01:20:44,062

And I just, I think knowing your, your

core competencies, you know, we're

:

01:20:44,062 --> 01:20:49,552

doing, you know, ideally we'd like

to work with our, our, um, Creative

:

01:20:49,552 --> 01:20:55,682

design tools are streaming or, you

know, directly into, like solvers.

:

01:20:55,692 --> 01:20:57,927

We're receiving the, results of that.

:

01:20:57,947 --> 01:20:59,666

And that you can make decisions quickly.

:

01:20:59,666 --> 01:21:04,391

And we, again, along that same speckle

route, like there are, you know, obviously

:

01:21:04,411 --> 01:21:09,129

we work very deeply and closely with

Autodesk tools and Dessault systems.

:

01:21:09,129 --> 01:21:13,734

So, like, we're not trying to,

like, Dislodge incumbents, but I, we

:

01:21:13,734 --> 01:21:18,424

like the people coming in that are

creating, you know, Skema, uh, but

:

01:21:18,424 --> 01:21:23,693

so we're, we're testing where these

lighter weight, uh, authorship tools

:

01:21:23,844 --> 01:21:32,454

that are web based or kind of can

stream into more agnostic geometry,

:

01:21:32,964 --> 01:21:35,334

uh, containers that we can connect.

:

01:21:36,249 --> 01:21:37,929

Analysis and data visualization too.

:

01:21:37,929 --> 01:21:41,829

I, I think this world of APIs

and interconnectivity, that's

:

01:21:41,829 --> 01:21:44,289

the next phase of all this.

:

01:21:44,289 --> 01:21:47,259

And, and it's not like SHoP portal.

:

01:21:47,289 --> 01:21:47,769

We're not expecting.

:

01:21:49,023 --> 01:21:51,054

You have to use our viewer.

:

01:21:51,084 --> 01:21:54,904

But if you're working with us, the fact

that we have our viewer, we can serve

:

01:21:54,904 --> 01:21:59,294

information or you can pull information in

what we think is the really intuitive way.

:

01:21:59,523 --> 01:22:02,414

So we'll keep building that knowing

Thornton Thomas said he has their viewers

:

01:22:02,434 --> 01:22:05,254

when you're working with them, you're

expecting very different things to see.

:

01:22:05,254 --> 01:22:09,104

So they're not, this isn't, you

know, it's not mutually exclusive.

:

01:22:09,134 --> 01:22:12,724

This is now all complimentary,

uh, exchanges of data.

:

01:22:13,114 --> 01:22:15,193

Evan Troxel: kind of couched

it under digital twin, right?

:

01:22:15,224 --> 01:22:18,443

But this idea of this, it lives on, right?

:

01:22:18,443 --> 01:22:18,614

It's,

:

01:22:18,624 --> 01:22:18,834

John Cerone: Yeah.

:

01:22:19,164 --> 01:22:22,504

Evan Troxel: built through

occupancy, through normal operating.

:

01:22:22,504 --> 01:22:25,514

And then, and now you're actually

testing your hypotheses, right?

:

01:22:25,523 --> 01:22:27,054

Like, The building is a prototype,

:

01:22:27,354 --> 01:22:27,544

John Cerone: Yep.

:

01:22:27,544 --> 01:22:27,934

Mm

:

01:22:28,234 --> 01:22:31,509

Evan Troxel: feedback, which is

going to inform your next designs,

:

01:22:31,849 --> 01:22:35,909

but also like you now have the

ability to build a relationship.

:

01:22:35,919 --> 01:22:39,818

And I think a lot of what you're talking

about with this collaboration through

:

01:22:39,849 --> 01:22:44,403

digital models is really interesting

for relationships because it, it, it.

:

01:22:44,554 --> 01:22:48,214

You, you guys are building

things together, whether it's

:

01:22:48,214 --> 01:22:48,534

John Cerone: hmm.

:

01:22:49,254 --> 01:22:53,294

Evan Troxel: or with your clients, you

also now have like the bat phone or

:

01:22:53,294 --> 01:22:57,334

they have the bat phone to you to say,

like, are you seeing what I'm seeing?

:

01:22:57,634 --> 01:23:00,284

John Cerone: yep, yep,

:

01:23:01,019 --> 01:23:04,549

Evan Troxel: And it allows the

relationship to continue beyond

:

01:23:04,559 --> 01:23:09,729

the service model of providing

architectural services, and now it's

:

01:23:09,969 --> 01:23:14,389

the building operations and ongoing

facilities management at with with the

:

01:23:14,389 --> 01:23:16,499

designers involved in that process.

:

01:23:16,509 --> 01:23:21,419

So it reinforces what you're doing next

time, but it also allows you to have that.

:

01:23:22,114 --> 01:23:25,584

I mean, a further understanding

of, of what they actually have

:

01:23:25,584 --> 01:23:26,834

to do to operate that space.

:

01:23:26,854 --> 01:23:28,544

And you're right, we talked about empathy,

:

01:23:28,844 --> 01:23:28,994

John Cerone: yeah.

:

01:23:29,004 --> 01:23:32,454

Evan Troxel: but then also just continuing

the relationship on with those clients.

:

01:23:32,454 --> 01:23:34,934

I think it's, it's really

fantastic from like a business

:

01:23:34,934 --> 01:23:36,544

model point of view as well.

:

01:23:36,844 --> 01:23:38,504

John Cerone: Yes, that is not lost on us.

:

01:23:38,794 --> 01:23:39,614

we want to create.

:

01:23:40,594 --> 01:23:45,914

Increasingly better and, and,

and objectively better design.

:

01:23:46,224 --> 01:23:52,154

Um, and that means, you know, are, are

we doing things a certain percent faster?

:

01:23:52,174 --> 01:23:54,854

Like there are KPIs we want to

settle in and are the buildings

:

01:23:55,364 --> 01:23:59,134

operating the way that they had

been, the intent and the design.

:

01:23:59,164 --> 01:24:03,004

And we want that again, you talk

about like, we were able from, from

:

01:24:03,004 --> 01:24:07,273

the means method standpoint, the

idea that we can adjust design to

:

01:24:07,284 --> 01:24:09,879

meet the Fabrication constraints.

:

01:24:09,999 --> 01:24:11,679

That, that is correct.

:

01:24:11,709 --> 01:24:12,169

You want that.

:

01:24:12,429 --> 01:24:16,749

But now, at a step back, the idea

that we are really designing data

:

01:24:16,749 --> 01:24:22,318

driven design, that is coming from,

uh, the performance of our buildings,

:

01:24:22,329 --> 01:24:25,889

the way that they're being received

by the clients, the occupants.

:

01:24:25,889 --> 01:24:28,969

Like that, um, that needs to happen.

:

01:24:29,779 --> 01:24:31,354

We're really excited by that.

:

01:24:32,064 --> 01:24:36,443

What, you know, that, that horizon,

uh, as a, as design professionals

:

01:24:36,464 --> 01:24:38,693

of like really being data driven.

:

01:24:39,423 --> 01:24:41,803

Randall Stevens: if anybody listened

to the podcast, hasn't visited

:

01:24:41,803 --> 01:24:45,633

y'alls website and seen some of the

projects, it's always exciting to see.

:

01:24:45,683 --> 01:24:49,913

And, um, we'll put some stuff in the show

notes and, uh, you know, I just want to

:

01:24:49,913 --> 01:24:54,803

say, thanks again, John, for coming down,

this past, uh, confluence event where

:

01:24:54,813 --> 01:24:56,473

we're always pimping the, uh, confluence.

:

01:24:57,148 --> 01:25:00,268

John Cerone: I, no, I appreciate, look,

I mean, I'll, I'll, the plug for that

:

01:25:00,278 --> 01:25:06,588

is, you know, it's, it's found, it's a,

one of these really relevant events where

:

01:25:06,728 --> 01:25:12,058

people are there to have discussions

like, you know, um, real discussions.

:

01:25:12,058 --> 01:25:16,143

It's not a, it's not a, you

know, people trying to kind of.

:

01:25:16,503 --> 01:25:21,373

Sell their wares or over present their,

you know, over inflate how they operate.

:

01:25:21,373 --> 01:25:22,433

It feels more real talk.

:

01:25:22,743 --> 01:25:27,133

It feels really focused around

relevant topics in our industry.

:

01:25:27,143 --> 01:25:33,883

And, you know, I, we are very happy

to, to obviously contribute where

:

01:25:33,883 --> 01:25:37,643

we can, but to participate in this,

I mean, it's, it's, we look forward

:

01:25:37,643 --> 01:25:41,088

to continuing that relationship

because it really is relevant.

:

01:25:41,388 --> 01:25:45,468

Randall Stevens: definitely appreciate it

and, uh, you know, the, the magic of that

:

01:25:45,468 --> 01:25:49,188

event is people like yourself, you know,

coming and being will willing to share.

:

01:25:49,188 --> 01:25:52,577

And I think it's, uh, that's what we're

trying to foster is kind of an open

:

01:25:52,577 --> 01:25:56,358

environment and, you know, it is, and it

is the, it's the intersection of where

:

01:25:56,358 --> 01:26:00,858

technology meets the design and the

practice to, trying to get people together

:

01:26:00,858 --> 01:26:02,358

to share, uh, these kinds of thoughts.

:

01:26:02,358 --> 01:26:03,258

So, uh, definitely.

:

01:26:03,593 --> 01:26:05,473

Appreciate your participation in that.

:

01:26:05,863 --> 01:26:08,693

And, uh, thanks for

joining us on the podcast.

:

01:26:09,782 --> 01:26:10,183

John Cerone: Thank you.

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About the Podcast

Confluence
The director's commentary track for AEC industry software development.
The Confluence podcast is the director's commentary track for AEC industry software. Go behind the scenes with us to learn how and why decisions were made in the creation of your favorite software for the architecture, engineering, and construction industries.

It's a collaboration between Randall Stevens of AVAIL and Evan Troxel of TRXL.

About your hosts

Evan Troxel

Profile picture for Evan Troxel
An industry-leading design and technology expert with a passion for connecting people, Evan is a licensed architect in California and is most well known for his podcasts that focus on the AEC industry.

He has over 25 years of experience in the practice and technology in the architectural profession working with large teams to deliver large public projects for clients. He now brings his experiences together on the Archispeak and TRXL podcasts, and now on the Confluence podcast.

Randall Stevens

Profile picture for Randall Stevens
An AEC industry veteran with 25 years of software development, and sales and management experience, Randall offers a unique combination of expertise in software and graphics technology — coupled with a background and degree in architecture.

In 1991 he founded ArchVision, a software firm specializing in 3D graphics, specifically Rich Photorealistic Content (RPC). Through ArchVision, Randall has built an extensive network with the industry’s leading experts, architectural firms, and visualization software companies, which led him to product development of the AVAIL platform.